ICS Hop Problems...

[gabkrys]

mga sir I have read here in FAS that there are inherent problems with ICS Hop System, my rifle is a ICS CXP, medyo bago pa po, around 2 months. Just this weekend na encounter ko po yung pag ja jam ng bbs sa my hop chamber, mahirap tangalin without using the long rod thingy. eto po ba yung one of the inherent problem ng ICS hop system? are there others? ano ano po solution nito. thx po.

[Shredder]

Sir gabkrys, does the ICS hop chamber wobble? Madali lang ba paikutin around the barrel? Is you hop up rubber firmly attached to the barrel na hindi sya umaatras? It's hard to answer your inquiry because there are many factors involved sa problemang ito...:icon_sad:

[gabkrys]

yes sir na sealed po namin yung hop assembly using gasket maker para po ayaw gumalaw at walang tagas.

[uToy_Story]

Sir,

I have experienced ICS hop-up problems too. I got two units, and another one from my brother. Pinapalitan ko na ng CA hop system yung isa ko, M-16, plus nilagyan ko ng prometheus na barrel. Yung M-4 ng brother ko pina-convert na ren namin. YUng M-4 ko will be scheduled for modification this october.

Kaso may modification ka pa gagawin sa CA hop-up to be able to install it properly. My gunsmith has done this to other units as well, and so far, satisfactory naman yung results.

Before I got frustrated sa FPS at accuracy ng unit ko, but now everything is ok. Yung M-16 ko, 450 fps sa sp150 (settled and one year na sia nagamit...medyo abused na). But now, same spring and settings (and dati pala naka JBU barrel pero ngaun PM na), pero CA hop-up...naging 530 fps na.

Again, this is based from my experience, and my gunsmith's dedication to detail...I suggest you also check other ICS unit owners/gunsmiths regarding this problem. Pero so far, Im happy with my ICS units.

[v2s13]

what the best nozzle to use when using this CA modified hop up. Im using modified systema right now in my ICS, pero when i tried CA may 30fps difference on both systema and CA. mas mataas nang 30fps sa systema, and both was used with CA hop up rubber then both was tested with a guarder airseal nozzle.

[JM360]

You can get a custom made airseal nozzle for ics. MAS carries them as well. So far my ICS M4 is the most sealed aeg i have worked on after placing the custom nozzle and a systema hop chamber. Shoots ave 482 on a PDI190%

The thing people should know is that the ICS hop chamber is actually misaligned. If you look closely, the mold for the inside portion is actually towards the left making air seal nozzles not align properly with the hop rubber. What makes me wonder is that until now, ics produces the same misaligned chamber for their aeg's

[ratatatatat]

ser, i have an ICS pistolized. Laging problema ang HOP Chamber because of the MINI SPRING that enables the whole HOP CHAMBER attached to the Barrel move forward and backward kapag umaatras abante rin yung air seal nozzle with the tappet plate.

That particular spring (that looks like a spring inside those parker ballpens) is really crucial. Minsan pag nabingkong or na mis aligned yung spring na yon hindi nag momove yung HOP chamber paatras or abante. Malaki ang effect nun kapag sya ay mis aligned or bingkokng: not only sa flight ng bb, sa pagbagsak ng FPS din and minsan nahuhulog nalang kusa yung bb sa labas ng barrel. Try to align the spring or replace it ser.

(Itatry ko rin magpunta sa National Bookstore to find ballpens na mura lang paara makahoy ko ang mga spring this week. Sa may mga problema nito, ipopost ko kung anong ballpen ang pwedeng kahuyin natin.)

[v2s13]

You can get a custom made airseal nozzle for ics. MAS carries them as well. So far my ICS M4 is the most sealed aeg i have worked on after placing the custom nozzle and a systema hop chamber. Shoots ave 482 on a PDI190%

The thing people should know is that the ICS hop chamber is actually misaligned. If you look closely, the mold for the inside portion is actually towards the left making air seal nozzles not align properly with the hop rubber. What makes me wonder is that until now, ics produces the same misaligned chamber for their aeg's


yung ginamit ko sir stock spring lang and systema chamber with guarder nozzle umabot nang 480fps nag settle sa 465-475fps. What do you mean custom made ASN for ICS? Pina machine shop nila? or specially built ASN for systema chamber to fit ICS?

ser, i have an ICS pistolized. Laging problema ang HOP Chamber because of the MINI SPRING that enables the whole HOP CHAMBER attached to the Barrel move forward and backward kapag umaatras abante rin yung air seal nozzle with the tappet plate.

That particular spring (that looks like a spring inside those parker ballpens) is really crucial. Minsan pag nabingkong or na mis aligned yung spring na yon hindi nag momove yung HOP chamber paatras or abante. Malaki ang effect nun kapag sya ay mis aligned or bingkokng: not only sa flight ng bb, sa pagbagsak ng FPS din and minsan nahuhulog nalang kusa yung bb sa labas ng barrel. Try to align the spring or replace it ser.

(Itatry ko rin magpunta sa National Bookstore to find ballpens na mura lang paara makahoy ko ang mga spring this week. Sa may mga problema nito, ipopost ko kung anong ballpen ang pwedeng kahuyin natin.)


Baka may crack yung ICS hop up chamber mo sir. Kasi ang gipit na sa upper gearbox to chamber pag lagay mo dun. Yun sa akin before i change to a systema, na notice ko na di na maganda flight ng bbs ko. Yun pala may crack na sa loob nang wheel sa ics chamber. 2 weeks ko lang nga nagamit yun, brittle kasi mga plastic parts sa ICS.

[crow]

sir can anyone recommend a gunsmith pra gumawa ng pagpapalit ng hop chamber.
tnx

[ratatatatat]

Baka may crack yung ICS hop up chamber mo sir. Kasi ang gipit na sa upper gearbox to chamber pag lagay mo dun. Yun sa akin before i change to a systema, na notice ko na di na maganda flight ng bbs ko. Yun pala may crack na sa loob nang wheel sa ics chamber. 2 weeks ko lang nga nagamit yun, brittle kasi mga plastic parts sa ICS.[/QUOTE]

ser wala. bago yun hop chamber ko. pag sira lang yun spring, doon lang naman nagkakaproblema. pag ayos yung spring perfect ang baril. parang gusto ko magpaconvert sa CA hop up na rin. so i will monitor the thread ser. Thanks for your analysis po.

[stalker]

inherent problem of ICS . . . . . .

I guess this is one of the advantages of having an ICS,
you will truly learn how to fix your own gun, or else, butas ang bulsa mo.
I got mine early this year somewhere cityland, dela rosa in makati,
they posted it at 450 FPS, but mine clockd at barely 340.
1st repair piston body (2x in a row)
2nd repair loose front assembly
3rd repair nozzle
4th repair hop packing (3or4? x's already)
5th repair tappet plate
6th repair piston body (again)
5th repair motor, got stuck on the grip (bad trip, that I have to saw it)
To expect the 6th repair on the switch assembly.
That's the problem when the importer religiously open the box upon arrival, you won't know to whom you should throw the blame, either from the dealer or to the manufacturer. But since they said they are the sole distrbutor of the said aeg, I assumed all of it was already corrupted before it had pass to other stores.

I wish I had CA instead or the G&G, as long the box had not been opened upon arrival from the manufacturer.
:icon_confused::icon_confused::icon_question:

[v2s13]

Sa tingin ko sir di yun sa ICS ang prob mo, na sa suking gunsmith mo. Kahit pa gaano ka galing sa gunsmith sa version 2 and version 3 GB doesnt mean alam nya mag repair sa ICS. Punta ka sa gunsmith na magaling sa ICS for sure simple lang yan mga probs mo.

1st repair piston body (2x in a row) - kahit anong beng2x to basta nka lipo or strong spring talagang kakainin yung piston mo. needs proper shimmings din para ganda pag meet sa sector gear and piston teeth.
2nd repair loose front assembly - ginawa ko nito nilagyan lang electrical tape sa inner part sa hand guard para ala na wobble.
3rd repair nozzle - ano nang yari nozzle mo sir?
Repair hop packing (3or4? x's already) -use silicon oil, quality bbs, match rubber with ur spring ur using
5th repair tappet plate - ICS are known to have brittle tappet plates, use guarder or hurricane
6th repair piston body (again) - try to shave the 2nd tooth from the big tooth, or shave the 3rd if u really have a high ROF set up
repair motor, got stuck on the grip - havent experience this
To expect the 6th repair on the switch assembly - ICS has a good quality switch assembly, parang silver coated yung contacts nya. pero wla talagang tatagal na contacts pag nka Lipo, either it will be covered with carbon deposits or will melt. Use mosfet. Mas affordable pa to get a mosfet than to buy a new switch assembly.

Last - To top it all baka pinaka lemon yung nakuha mo na ICS sir :)

Ive learn to fix my own ICS coz wla kasi ako alam dito sa Cebu who a master gunsmith in ICS aegs. Iba kasi lahat yung ICS compare to version 2 gb. Pero ang laki nang tulong here in FAS. Kasi eto lang ako source ko sa pag learn to repair nang ICS ko. Til now im very satisfied with my ICS. Get the CA coz almost all the gunsmith are expert in that brand of AEG. kahit sinong gunsmith puntahan mo alam nila yan.

[JM360]

for the following points

1. ICS does have a timing problem with the sector gear and the piston body. It is actually not that easy to align the AoE since the gearbox is in two pieces. Best you can quickly do is add spacers for the piston head.

2. The switch assembly of ICS has a silver coating and should last longer than your average switch assembly.

[v2s13]

Isa pang addition sa ICS. When buying a new ICS aeg, there stock piston o-ring really suck big time!! Change it direclty, stretching has a chance that will turn to its size, so just to be sure just change it. I did a compression test with all of my 3 ICS aegs. There stock orings cannot expand much. Walang ressistance.

@JM360: bro how many mm of spacers will you add in the piston body for the right alignment in ICS? di ko pa kasi na experiment to, takot kasi ako ma pud2x either ang sector gear or ang piston teeth pag nagkamali ako. hehe

[Checkmate16]

Fellow ICS Owners,

I also have an ICS M4 RIS. I broke the stock piston body and replaced it with deepfire titanium half tooth. I also replaced the spring with PDI 190 but to my surprise instead of getting higher chrono reading, it went down from 400 fps to 380 fps (ROF also went down from 18-20 rps to 14-16 rps).

We sealed the cylinder head with teflon tape and was able to get good compression but was only able to crank 400 fps from the PDI 190. Decided to put back the original spring and again to our amzement we are also hitting around 400 fps. However, this went down to 375 fps (still the stock spring) after a game and when I do the simple leak test of inverting the gun, loading the chamber with BBs and then firing, BBs shoot out of the chamber.

I then did a silicone sealing of the cylinder head (better compression I think) and replaced the hop rubber with an SRC brand which supposedly has harder rubber in the opening portion where the nozzle makes contact. I also teflon sealed the inner barrel to the chamber which I think also took care of possible leaks from this area.

However I still have the same hop chamber leaks (BBs still fly out) and chorono is still between 375-380. After several hours of frustration, I remembered reading a post here in FAS which suggests moving the hop chamber forward and as close as possible to the upper gearbox. I then sanded down (very minimal) the hop chamber rotating knob where it mates with the gearbox. I noticed that in doing so, when you insert the gearbox (nozzle inside the hop chamber and then pushed all the way in) the tappet plate now moves slightly backwards confirming that a portion of the hop chamber (probably the hard tip of the hop rubber) makes contact with the nozzle. This I believe somewhat seals the leaks as the chrono is now hitting 400 max and when I do the inverted leak test, BBs do not fly out anymore. Although in some cases after the first 2 rounds, they again fly out.

I think I was able to solve my ICS problem albeit not completely. I am now thinking of sanding down the knob further or will getting a new nozzle (longer?) will create more engagement ergo more positive air seal resulting to higher FPS. Another question is will this be enough for me to use higher rated springs like PDI 190 or SP 130 and sustain gain in FPS in accordance to what should be expected from these springs?

I hope you can help me further on this and would appreciate any detailed instructions from you guys who are already satisfied and enjoying your beloved ICS M4s. I will check the alignment mentioned above and would appreciate more details as I still fail to get it completely (not your fault sir and really value your sharing).

Thank you in advance felolw brothers in-arms (ICS :-)).

Checkmate

[JM360]

@v2s13
You can put as much as 1mm of spacers without having to shave off anything. Better if its just one piece. So far anything to 1mm can only mean good to the piston body. Even using the ICS full aluminum body I still get premature wear marks if there are no spacers. I'm thinking that you can go as high as 2mm without having to shave off anything. If youre using a polycarb piston body, no need to worry about breaking your sector gear that much.

@ checkmate16
It is really frustrating to understand that hop chamber of the ICS. As I posted above, the hop chamber itself suffers from a manufacturing defect. I really don't want to be quite a brute about it but based on what I have learned is that it will take quite a lot of effort to set everything up using the stock hop chamber. Even using a custom ASN (aluminum turned) yielded not so satisfactory results despite it having the best design i could want from a custom ics nozzle (o-ring, as long as a systema asn, and crowned like a stock ics asn). Fact is, the ics hop chamber will not let the asn align well with the hop rubber. You can check it yourself, get a flashlight and peek in. You'll see that the cylinder on the chamber leading to the barrel in not centered. And if its not centered, then the asn will not be centered. (NOTE: I'm not sure if older models had this flaw but even replacement hop chamber of ICS also has this problem)

The point im driving at is quite simple. I really would suggest using a systema hopup chamber coupled with a good asn (some have managed to use CA chamber but I tried it once and concluded that CA doesn't have a consistent quality of machining). I know its a bit drastic having to spend 1500++ and another 400++ for the two but its the best approach you can make.

If you don't want to take this route, let me know. I'll post some things you can try that gave me some fps increase (around 430 on the pdi190). Try not to shave your gearbox, solving it on that side will not always get you the results you wanted and at the same time leave you no option of turning back.

[v2s13]

My ICS stock spring(ICS m120) chrono is 480fps(initial) then 465-470fps settled sa ICS m4 RIS ko. Heres my internals para may idea kayo kung ano gawin nyo. Eto kasi set-up ko. Mag tulungan tayo mga ICS users!!! :)

ICS m4 RIS

Modified Systema hop up chamber (sealed with silicon sealant)
Systema hop up rubber
prometheus TB 6.03 363mm
Guarder m4 airseal nozzle
CA aluminum pistonhead (with viton 116 o-ring)
stock cylinder and cylinderhead (sealed with sealant)
Deepfire Ti piston
SCS nub
Stock gears
EG1000 motor
=470FPS @ 23bbs rps using Lipo

ICS CXP .08

Modified Systema hop up chamber (sealed with silicon sealant)
CA hop up rubber
Prometheus 6.03 229mm tb
CA m4 airseal nozzle
Systema Duracon pistonhead
Stock cylinder+cylinderhead (sealed with silicon sealant)
Deepfire Ti piston
SCS nub
stock gears
turbo 3k motor
3one mosfet
=440fps(initial chrono) 416-420fps(settled) @ 21rps

ICS m4a1 - sira pa hehehe la na pera pang replacement parts

I tried changing my spring to a PDI 210% pero humina FPS ko, sa m4 RIS ko 470fps to 450fps, my ICS CXP 416fps to 380fps. Di ko alam anong nang yari, kaya binalik ko nlng yung stock spring. Wla ako idea bat ganun ang results kasi kung may leaks sana di tumaas fps ko when i changed it back to the stock spring. Isa lang suspect ko baka fake yung PDI 210% nabili ko. Havent tried other springs pa, ala na kasi budget. Baka may idea kau anong culprit bat bumaba yung fps ko pag gumamit ako PDI.

Dont use modified CA chamber, bumili ako kasi mas cheaper kaysa systema pero may difference nang 20-30fps sa systema chamber. Malaki kasi chance defect sa CA kasi made in china unlike sa systema na Japan so mas consistent sila sa diameter/measurement sa product nila.


-----Added 7 Oct 2008 at 12:25:18------
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-----Please consolidate all your messages into one post. Use the EDIT feature.


@JM360: paki lagay specs mo bro para ma test ko using PDI springs, takot na kasi ako bumili PDI baka same result lang sa nabili ko. Di ko kasi alam sa spring or sa set-up or incompatible pa kung bat bumaba FPS ko using PDI. I change to PDI 210% kala ko kasi 500fps na yun. bumaba pala :(

[gabkrys]

I'll try to experiment using all your suggestions mga sir... medyo mahirap lng maghanap ng parts dito sa lugar namin. anyway I'll post my findings kung may improvement or wala...thx po sa lahat... I learn a lot everyday here in FAS, improving my present technical skills and being able to help my team and others here since I am the only tech in our area. :)

[ivan]

hello,

my ics anniversary edition chronoed at 390 with sp120.

i changed to metal hop up but had to shave the front end of it to make it fit. it chronoed still at 390. when the groupings of bb's were degraded i decided to change the hop rubber. while doing this i noticed the arm that holds the SCS was quite off. i changed it to a spare one a friend had and shaved the top part to make it fit. we chronoed the gun and it clocked in at 445-450 fps. not really sure how this happened but right now i'm satisfied with my ICS.

i'm hoping someone here can shed some light as to where the extra 60 fps came from.

i did not seal the hop chamber nor the rubber anymore because i was afraid i would go over the fps limit of the site i play in.

[crow]

gud pm mga sirs..
im also experiencing same problem with my ics m4 rifle.
im from bulacan at meron poba kyong marerecomend na gunsmith to modify my rifle.
tnx po sa help.

[ivan]

anong issue sa gun mo sir crow?

[crow]

gud pm.
hirap kc palakasin ng m4 k.
sp130 spring ko pro 430 fps lng ako. ngayon drop na to 410 fps.
mdyo dko na nga cya ginagamit kc naiinis ako.
dhl sp130 spring ko, once nko nabasagan ng upper gearbox.
mdyo masakit na ulo ko d2 at cyempre syang yung pera.

mga sirs kung may makakatulong po maraming salamat.

sir ivan may contact number pba kyo?
tnx

[JM360]

Took a while but finally found time to post a few things ICS users could try.

First
The problem with the ICS hopup is that the cylinder inside is not aligned properly, this causes the airseal nozzle to go to the right and not go center when it reaches the hop rubber. The pictures shows the problem (note I already shaved a portion of it so the problem seems smaller than it really is)

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/8659/img0636copydc0.jpg

Note the red circles to show how off the center is..

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/5791/img0636uj9.jpg


Now for a solution. You'll need the following,

1. High density foam (sounds too technical but it really just is very dense foam/rubber used for slippers)
2. Blade

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/326/img0638oi9.jpg

Cut the foam into a 10mm x 7.5mm x 7.5mm cube

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8053/img0639uj1.jpg

Slice a canal along the 10mm face. This will accommodate the spring of the hop up chamber.

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/3105/img0642zh6.jpg

Place the foam in this manner inside the upper receiver before placing the hopup chamber.

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3419/img0644zs2.jpg

As an added diagram, if you want to use a systema chamber, shave off the lower part as shown

Now, the foam trick is actually useful for the systema chamber because it still allows you to use the ics mags. I'm not really sure how well the foam trick would do with the stock ics hop up chamber but I think it should help.

[chicane]

Wow thanks alot sir! Sir I'm planning to get a Systema metal hop like yours and shave it down, I'm just wondering what's the real purpose of the "foam trick" and how does it affect the ICS mag feeding? Thank you so much sir JM.

Update:

30 mins ago I was reading your post sir JM, since it's my vacation I decided to try it out. I grabbed some old rubber slippers and started cutting. Well it works!! I automatically had +15 fps on my ICS CQB!! And the muzzle velocity is much much more stable than before, I get about +-4 consistency (I used to have +-10fps consistency). This tricks works for me!!!

How does it work? Well I've read a post by sir V2S13 he said that the trick is to push the hop chamber against the GB, I think this is (the) or one of the use of the foam trick.

Thanks sir!!!


-----Added 27 Oct 2008 at 11:42:23------
-----Auto merged by FAS' System for Double Posting/ Bumping within 24hrs.
-----Please consolidate all your messages into one post. Use the EDIT feature.


gud pm.
hirap kc palakasin ng m4 k.
sp130 spring ko pro 430 fps lng ako. ngayon drop na to 410 fps.
mdyo dko na nga cya ginagamit kc naiinis ako.
dhl sp130 spring ko, once nko nabasagan ng upper gearbox.
mdyo masakit na ulo ko d2 at cyempre syang yung pera.

mga sirs kung may makakatulong po maraming salamat.

sir ivan may contact number pba kyo?
tnx

Sir ganyan na ganyan po yung problem ko noon. Sa ICS CQB (220mm barrel length) ko sir SP130 = 390 -400 fps lang. GUmamit pako nang sp140 hangang 400fps lang talaga, nagka hairline crack pa tuloy gb ko. Pero ngayon po stock spring lang 420fps na, pag may foam trick umaabot po nang 435fps. SIr yung problem po talaga nang ICS sa tingin ko is ung hop chamber. I seal nyo lang po nang mabuti yung hop chamber using teflon and yung spring po nang chamber dapat po maayos xiang nkalagay. Kasi minsan na bebend yung spring. And try nyo po yung foam trick ni sir jm360 it works po talaga. And totoo talaga yung defect nung sa hop chamber na sinasabi ni sir jm360, mtagal ko na napansin yun akala ko lemon lang yung unit ko pero as it turned out, hindi lang pala ko yung may ganung hop chamber.

cheers

[JM360]

Chicane,
Glad it worked out well for you. The problem with the whole idea which I havent tested is how long till the foams' elasticity limits breaks away. Also, don't assume that the +15fps is already good. As I've posted before, a custom airseal nozzle and systema hop chamber brought my sp120 to 470fps. Although I had to change back right after to a PDI150% hehe

Take note that even if the systema spring on the hop chamber is pretty stiff, I had to use the foam trick after a game since the chamber started to move forward again.

Another good benefit of this trick is that it still allows you to use the ICS magazines which normally was deemed useless after the systema hop chamber transplant.